A visit from Joyce

[jodokirvanti]

I'd like the opinion of others:

This past weekend, some friends and I got into a debate about The First, in Season 7. The episode, Conversations with Dead People, our cast is greeted with visits from beyond the grave. Most of my friends and myself believe that Dawn's visit from Joyce was indeed from Joyce. However, a few hold-outs believe that it was The First, due to her grim message of "Buffy will not choose you".

What do you all think? Was the visit from Joyce actually The First or was Dawn's actual loving mother visiting her from the grave with a warning?

[Skitty]

I personally believe it WAS Joyce, for the following reasons.

In this scene, and in this scene alone, if we are to believe that it is the First speaking to Dawn, then we see it do things that we know for a fact it cannot. It moves furniture. It makes things fly. It bangs things against the wall and opens doors. It controls electronics. And, most importantly, it attacks Dawn. Physically attacks her.

It would have been very easy for the First to just appear as Joyce. Very easy indeed. But the fact that Dawn has to go through such an ordeal, fighting off something that is clearly not the first, for the reasons stated above, makes me think otherwise. Now, granted, it all could have been a ruse, to get Dawn to really believe that she was speaking to her mother. But why would the First go to that much effort when it didn't with anyone else? I hate to say it, but Dawn just doesn't warrent that kind of attention.

And whats more, we know that Willow was speaking to the first at the exact same moment across town. Now we've never been told that the First can be in two places at once. We've never been told it CAN'T, but if it could, why did we never see it happen again?

So yeah, I think it was Joyce. But I didn't understand the message then and I don't pretend to understand it now.

[destructogirl30]

I find it difficult to believe that Joyce would cause so much distress to Dawn, also I felt the message was meant to drive a wedge between Buffy and Dawn. The first tried to convince Willow to commit suicide for the same reason. I believe the First wanted Buffy left alone with no help from her friends much like Adam in season 4 attempted.

I also wondered how the First was capable of the poltergeist activities when it is stated that the First can't touch or affect the world. It's plausible that the entity Dawn encountered was working for the First.

In conclusion, I don't think that Joyce appeared to Dawn and if it was Joyce she was being used against her will. The final image Dawn saw of Joyce I firmly believe was the First.

Joyce's final appearance seemed to be very contrived and I don't believe that Dawn would be capable of casting out a true demon all alone. It was most definitely a set up to make Dawn believe that she had saved her mother and was hearing the truth.

[bevandera]

I need to rewatch it...I only saw that episode once and remember not being sure what had happened or what Joyce was really saying. It was freaky though. This is the episode with Johnathan Woodward as the psychologist vampire, right?

[Skitty]

That would be the correct episode.

And I still hold that we have no real evidence that Joyce was the First. The title of the episode is Conversations with Dead People. Buffy speaks to someone who is not there on orders from the first, merely a coincidence. Why should we assume that both of the other encounters we see are incarnations of the first? It seems to me like looking for a pattern where maybe there isn't one.

[jodokirvanti]

The part that throws me is what Destructogirl30 said. If it was actually Joyce, why put so much strain on Dawn and physically attack her? Could it be possible, as Skitty indicated, that the entity visiting Dawn was not The First nor Joyce? I mean, Willow encountered The First. Buffy encountered a Vampire. Could the manifestation at the Sommers home have been something different?
However, even though the vampire Buffy encountered was not actually The First, he was turned by Spike who was being manipulated by The First. So, as indicated by Destructogirl30, it could have been an entity that was working for The First that attacked Dawn and then The First manifested as Joyce. Stupid viewer interpretations

[browncoattabz]

I don't think it was the First and I don't think it was Joyce either... I believe it was something else the First cooked up maybe with some other demon(s) (since it was with Willow) to scare Dawn. I do believe the First can only manifest in one place at one time.