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Post by Skitty on May 29, 2007 19:46:20 GMT -5
SPIKE: It's bollocks, Angel! It's your brand of bollocks from the first to last.
ANGEL: No, you can't ever see the big picture. You can't see any picture!
SPIKE: I am talking about something primal. Right? Savagery. Brutal animal instinct.
ANGEL: And that wins out every time with you. You know, the human race has evolved, Spike!
SPIKE: Oh, into a bunch of namby-pamby, self-analyzing wankers who could never hope to—
ANGEL: We're bigger. We're smarter. Plus, there's a thing called teamwork, not to mention the superstitious terror of your pure aggressors!
SPIKE: You just want it to be the way you want it to be.
ANGEL: (yelling) It's not about what I want!
WESLEY: (arriving) Sorry. Is this something we should all be discussing?
ANGEL: (embarrassed) No.
WESLEY: It just...sounds a little serious.
ANGEL: It was mostly...theoretical. We...
SPIKE: We were just working out a b— Look, if cavemen and astronauts got into a fight, who would win?
(he crosses his arms and looks expectantly at Wes)
WESLEY: Ah. You've been yelling at each other for 40 minutes about this?
(they both look embarassed. Wesley considers...)
WESLEY: Do the astronauts have weapons?
ANGEL & SPIKE: (simultaneously) No.
It's the age old question! Well...maybe not age old, but a damn fine one nonetheless. So, which side to you take? Do you agree with Spike, that pure savagry and the will to survive would be enough? Or are you with Angel, believing that team work, size, and brain power would be enough to win the day?
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Post by bevandera on Jun 5, 2007 8:47:32 GMT -5
Evidence suggests the average Neanderthal male was about 5'5". Neanderthals seemed to suffer a high frequency of fractures on the hips, skull, spine, and ribs. Arthritis was particularly common (in the ankle, spine, hips, arms, knees, fingers, and toes), as was hypoplasia (due to nutritional deficiencies). The arthritis is closely related to degenerative joint disease, which was also likely a common condition for Neanderthals.
The first era of astronauts and cosmonauts tended to be jet fighter pilots from military backgrounds. After selection, the crew underwent several years of training in the Mercury-spacecraft systems, as well as flight training, continuous medical evaluations and survival training in many environments (such as desert, jungle and ocean). Height ranged from 5'7" to 5'11".
The screening process today includes extensive medical and psychological evaluations, as well as stress tests in conditions such as high G-forces, vibration and isolation.
I'm assuming that the each groups (cavemen and astronauts) will be chosen fairly (no picking the sick old cavemen) and that the teams will either be a 'typical' team of cavemen/astronauts or an 'ideal' team. Either way, I'll give it to the astronauts. Basic knowledge of the human body today is likely universes ahead of the cavemen's...we know to kick in the crotch, punch for the throat, gouge out the eyes, box the ears. We've had millenia to perfect fighting dirty - and some/all of these astronauts are ex-military and have had basic CQC training of some kind.
Potential astronauts are selected from a pool of over 4,000 candidates, (many of which have served in the armed forces) and all of which are fit, adaptable, educated, and in good health. About 100 are chosen for years of additional training. There are so many barriers to entry in becoming an astronaut that becoming ones marks you as exceptional. To be a caveman, you just have to be born 'during caveman days'.
To sum it up, I think matching trained elites with considerable intelligence (both in general and on the biology of themselves and their enemy) against arthritic malnutrioned primitives four inches shorter than them is a mismatch. If you put the average man (not astronaut) today against the average caveman, that would probably be more of a contest.
.....see, this is what happens when I'm bored at work.
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Post by h0stile17 on Jun 5, 2007 11:23:49 GMT -5
NINJAS!!!
Oh wait....wrong discussion!
Carry on....
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Post by Skitty on Jun 5, 2007 12:36:42 GMT -5
I still have to go with the cavemen. Yes, we know how to fight each other more effectively, but you have to take into evaluation the idea of brute force. Cavemen were killing wild animals that were a lot more ferocious AND dangerous than they are today with their bare hands in most cases. Sure, humans today are bigger and stronger, but I doubt very much that we are bigger and stronger than the caveman equivilent of the tiger, or hey, the mammoth. They were smart enough to take down huge beasts like that, I don't think it would be that hard to take down a group of men.
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Post by nicodemus on Jun 5, 2007 23:59:39 GMT -5
Not to mention the brow ridge of the cavemen would give them one hell of a headbutt to use.
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Post by bevandera on Jun 6, 2007 7:51:53 GMT -5
You'd think with Angel's brow line he'd be more supportive of the Cavemen.
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Post by Skitty on Jun 6, 2007 9:04:58 GMT -5
Ha! No, I think he's got a bit too much of a pretentious streak to support something that savage. It goes against his nature.
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Post by nicodemus on Jun 7, 2007 4:53:58 GMT -5
Or would supporting something that savage be too much of an admission that he used to like that sort of stuff? After all, Angel hasn't always been, well, an angel.
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Post by Jennifer B. on Jun 7, 2007 5:41:12 GMT -5
I have to go with the Cavemen on this one for all of the reasons Skitty mentioned. Especially if the astronauts have no weapons!
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Post by bevandera on Jun 7, 2007 9:10:06 GMT -5
Cavemen fracture their own ribs by jumping on the backs of unsuspecting animals and pounding at them like apes. Astronauts juryrig lithium hydroxide filters using random parts. The astronauts have the greatest weapon of all - Imagination. Would Levar Burton lie? I think not. Cavemen's outer carpals are consistently and significantly more worn than their knuckles - they didn't even reach the point of punching. They just raise their arms and bring them down on the target until it hopefully stops moving. Granted, this works better once there's a club in hand, but I assume the cavemen don't get weapons either. Cavemen will pound away mindlessly, the ex-military astronauts will be going for the eyes, throat, groin, kicks to the ankles, or solar plexus. The cavemen will have never fought something that attacks methodically and knows their weak points before. Just remember: Geordi LaForge endorses Astronauts over Cavemen.
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Post by nicodemus on Jun 7, 2007 19:32:08 GMT -5
But not all astronauts are ex-military, there's plenty of civilian specialists these days. So an average group of astronauts will include some people who are useless in a fight with cavemen.
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Post by Skitty on Jun 8, 2007 0:44:32 GMT -5
I'm sticking with Cavemen.
Combat training isn't what it used to be. Sure, they still know a lot more about fighting than you or me, but when do they actually use it? It's all about the guns these days, and I just don't have enough faith in training to believe that it would hold up in a battle against something as savage as your average caveman. I think if they had time to really think about it and plan, maybe they'd have a chance. But in a fight like that, there won't be any extra time.
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Post by nicodemus on Jun 8, 2007 6:12:23 GMT -5
Question: will this be a formalised debate at some point during D*C?
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Post by bevandera on Jun 8, 2007 8:09:20 GMT -5
If so, we should make it more specific: Are these the kind of cavemen you see on TV where they're all built like bodybuilders or gorillas or the historical ones? Do the astronauts get their spacesuits and helmets or are they in their civvies? How many members of each team? Is it a branch tournament of one-on-ones or a group match? What era of cavemen and what era of astronauts?
...Actually, scratch that. For a panel it should probably be broad so more people join in.
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Post by Skitty on Jun 8, 2007 14:24:01 GMT -5
To the best of my knowledge, it's not going to be one of our panels. I tried not to put things up that I thought would be all talked out by the time the convention rolled around. Good thoughts though. Cavemen Rule!
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