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Post by Skitty on Sept 10, 2007 23:38:33 GMT -5
Okay, so there is one topic that I really wanted to bring up in this panel but we never got around to. Just not enough time! So I'm bringing it up here.
The attempted rape.
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Post by swtcheri78 on Sept 11, 2007 11:11:21 GMT -5
I think that in his mind at the moment it was a simple equation that went terribly, horribly wrong. Right now Buffy wants nothing to do with me, but when we have sex she loves me; therefore if I can get her to have sex she will love me again instead of push me away. I don't think it his being evil had much to do with it. It was desperation and he completely lost control. Afterward he realized what he had done, and knowing there was no way to apologize or make up for it he did the only thing he could do, get himself a soul. Such a horrible thing can never be made right, but admitting the wrong says something about him. He did everything in his power to help make things right, and I think there is even a slight possibility that he thought he might die during the trials and that would be fitting. Buffy accepted the sincere effort, which is something I'm not sure I could do myself. It's a hard scene for me to watch because I have always been able to feel the emotion in this show, so I haven't dwelled much on the situation. These are just a few of my thoughts.
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Post by Skitty on Sept 11, 2007 12:31:59 GMT -5
I'm not one of those Spike girls who conveniently sweeps this moment under the rug. For me, this is probably the worst thing Spike ever did, and yes I do say that knowing he has killed hundreds of people in his lifespan. I'm not minimalism their deaths, I'm simply saying this:
Spike was a Demon. We all knew it. We liked to pretend he was house broken but he wasn't. He was a demon. He killed hundreds and hundreds of innocent people and he had fun. But when he attempted to rape Buffy, he didn't do that because of the demon. He did that because of the man. A lot of people look at the scene and go "What did you expect? He's a soulless evil thing." But I think that's selling him short. When he killed, he did it because he was feeding, or because he thought it was fun. The people weren't anything to him but food or sport. Buffy was a woman he claimed to loved, and he still hurt her in ways that could not be undone. And he knew it. You can see it on his face when the realization hits. I question whether any evil creature had ever worn such a look of terror over anything less than their own imminent death. I think if Buffy had staked him in that moment, he wouldn't have blamed her. I think he would have welcomed it.
For me this is the telling moment in Spike's entire history. We talk a lot about the monster in the man and the man in the monster, but this is the scene that shows that aspect the best, I think. You can't have one without the other when you deal with Spike. But, at the end of the day, the man in him has always been stronger. And if the man makes a bad choice, it's going to have far worse consequences for everyone involved than when his demon gets antsy and goes on a killing spree.
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Post by swtcheri78 on Sept 15, 2007 14:20:50 GMT -5
Wow, Skitty, are we the only ones with opinions on this subject? I find that surprising.
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Post by athenamuze on Sept 16, 2007 20:14:56 GMT -5
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Post by swtcheri78 on Sept 16, 2007 21:27:53 GMT -5
I was actually really referring to non-panelists who didn't have access to this thread before. I suppose I should have said am I the only one with an opinion. It was an important arc for me, maybe it just wasn't for other people.
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Post by labrynth on Sept 18, 2007 8:25:32 GMT -5
Sorry, but no matter how many times I watch it or how many times Jane Espenson swears that's how they meant it, I still do not believe Spike went to get a soul. I'm sorry but "Give that bitch what she deserves" is NOT the statement of a man trying to give someone he loves what he thinks she wants. He may have wanted it in the back of his mind and that's what the demon fed off of when he gave it to him, but you can't convince me that he went to get a soul when he left Sunnydale.
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Post by swtcheri78 on Sept 18, 2007 10:54:58 GMT -5
That was my first thought too, but what he said isn't likely what he meant. Just like in the musical when he says I hope she fries I'm free if that bitch dies.... I better help her out. So I think he got what he wanted not what he said he wanted. And he did say what she deserved and he knew what she deserved.
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Post by labrynth on Sept 18, 2007 16:36:39 GMT -5
That was my first thought too, but what he said isn't likely what he meant. Just like in the musical when he says I hope she fries I'm free if that bitch dies.... I better help her out. So I think he got what he wanted not what he said he wanted. And he did say what she deserved and he knew what she deserved. Sorry, still can't convince me he went looking for a soul. NOTHING we ever saw pointed to the fact he was looking for it other than he got it. But we've been shown that demons are rather untrustworthy, so why would we believe the demon would do what Spike wanted? Demons don't tend to operate that way. I'll agree he probably had it in the back of his mind, but no matter what anyone says I'm not buying he went looking for a soul. Not to mention the soul thing came prior to them having a relationship. Did Spike mean what he said in the musical? Sure, to some extend I'm sure he DID wish she'd die. Why? Because just like he said, he'd be free of her and the way she clouds his head. Would he have let it happen? Highly doubtful. There are a thousand reasons I could site for this actually. But none of it means he left Sunnydale looking for a soul.
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