William the Bloody - FULL

[h0stile17]

Reserved for the William the Bloody Panel

Moderator: Skitty

Panelists: Jennifer Campbell-Hicks, Jennifer B, Kim (athenamuze), Tabitha (browncoattabsz)

[Skitty]

MY FAVORITE SUBJECT!!

Where on earth should this panel begin? I'm a gog as to where to start. These things usually begin with Spike's relationship with Buffy, which I think is cheating. What if we did something a little different this year. What if we actually started at the beginning? I say we start discussing him by discussion William and moving forward, rather than backwards. So much of his character as a monster is defined by who he was as a man, so I think it's a logical place to start, don't you?

[Jennifer B.]

I agree. I think in order to get everything started, a discussion about who he was is needed and then he how evolved into becoming the actual 'William The Bloody'. Even if his whole relationship with Buffy is left out, is fine with me since obviously, Drusilla, Angel and Darla have a fabulous back story together. And then the Buffy talk if it comes up?

[Skitty]

The problem I always see coming up with this topic is that when we talk about the man he was before, we always wind up talking about Buffy too because she and Dawn were really the only people to see him as a man at any point. That will be one of the things we have to watch out for. We don't want to get ahead of ourselves.

[Jennifer B.]

I agree. Maybe we could talk about the man we see when he's reading his poetry to Cecily and then go from how he evolved from being the 'poet mama's boy' to the changes he went through after he was turned into a vampire. And then maybe wrap it up with how he became a champion with a soul.

Personally, I think once he was turned, he felt he had something to prove to the world. Kind of like he wasn't the mama's boy and he could be bad and that he somehow felt he had to gain the acceptance from Angel. I think the whole Angel and Dru bit had a big influence on him as a vampire and he was constantly seeking approval or something similar. He obviously had to work hard to 'shine' in Dru's eyes after the episode (and I forget the name at the moment) where he walks in on Angel and Dru. It's kind of like he had this vendetta to show that he could be someone in the vampire world.

Fast forward a few years and he's killing slayers, which is a feat Angelus never did. So in that instance, I feel he thinks he's one or two up on Angelus. Once they part ways, however, I think Joss really gets more in depth with Angel's back story. When Spike arrives in Sunnydale in 'School Hard', his character, to me, isn't as great as what it later becomes. Yeah, he's a badass and he wants everyone to know. I'm just really glad that they kept him around as long as they did in the series because it wouldn't have been the same without him.

And I'm starting to ramble, so I'll stop for now. But if you'd like, I can go on in another post.

[Skitty]

jenniebug said:

Personally, I think once he was turned, he felt he had something to prove to the world. Kind of like he wasn't the mama's boy and he could be bad and that he somehow felt he had to gain the acceptance from Angel.

I think that particular change in his character stemmed from the actions of his mother and his fear that maybe what she said had a little bit of truth to it, hence causing him to do a 180 personality wise.

[jcampbellhicks]

Sorry I'm late to the discussion.

Everything that both have said so far looks good. I definitely agree that we need to keep the conversation away from Buffy as much as possible because really, she's only part of a very small period of his life. So if I'm following this right, we mostly want to focus on pre-Buffy ... Who he was as a human and how and why he evolved into the badass we all know and love.

I agree that the vamping of his mother and what she said to him was a big turning point. Possibly the most important one of his life. I'll have to go back and rewatch that episode to get a more solid feel on what was said. Before the Mommy Vamping, William, even as a vampire, was still being a mama's boy (I think that says something to the strength of his personality vs. the demon's). After he dusted his mother was when he started acting as badass as he could.

To that point, I'll throw out this question: How much of the persona of Spike was simply an act, and at what point did it stop being an act and start being who he actually was ... if ever? I mean, a couple of years hanging around Buffy (there she is again, I know) and he reverted to some extent, even to the point of fighting for the return of his soul.

[Skitty]

I think one of the most telling moments of his character occurs in the first scene we see of him. He's completely vamped until Dru comes in and then it's instantly his human face. And I don't think we should COMPLETELY avoid Buffy since the context requires we talk about him. 90% of what we know about him we know through his relationship with Buffy, so she's kind of important. But I just hope we can stop from talking about HER in the relationship and more about how he reacts to her, if you see what I mean.

[jcampbellhicks]

OK. I misunderstood. You were suggesting we avoid too much of the Spike/Buffy relationship, which also is fine with me because the Tough Love panel last year focused almost completely on that.

[Skitty]

Topic you must stop me from wasting the entire panel on:

Spike and Dawn.

Cause I really will go on for hours.

[athenamuze]

Hey all! Just joining in here and I love what's been said so far.
I completely am up for talking about William's progression sans Buffy. One thing I this is particularly interesting about him is that he's a total anomaly when it comes to vampires (from the small sample we have). The fact that he was willing to work on the side of good without a soul (whatever the motivation) is huge.
I find it difficult to believe the Watcher's credo that all Vampires are just shells with a demon inside in light of Spike. It seems like he has gone from poet/mamma's boy to vamp with something to prove back to poet/good man. It makes me think perhaps the Watchers are pushing propaganda to help slayers not have a conscience when killing vamps.
That's just a small aside though, the point is really that Spike changed what Vampires mean to the Buffyverse due to this progression of his.

[Skitty]

Okay, but, keeping that in mind, we do have to talk about one specific less than "good guy" action which sort of reaffirmed that he is, indeed, a monster, even if he's got more man than most. The attempted rape.

[athenamuze]

It's funny you bring that up because I think it actually drives my point home even more.

See Spike was a vampire and he was trained for many years as to what that meant. To him, being evil was the status quo, and he worked hard to prove himself as such. Now things got pretty shaken up when he got the chip, and then he became aware of something that until that point only Drusilla really understood. He was in love. Now Spike is facing a new identity, and he finds some solace in the fact that the woman he loves confides in him and eventually even favors him romantically (sexually). When she breaks off the relationship with him he is lost, he seeks her out for explanation, to try and understand her reasoning. He attempts to talk to her, to get her to confess the things she told him while being intimate together. She resists and he makes the leap that if only she would be that way with him again, she would understand and admit to her feelings for him. THIS IN NO WAY MAKES WHAT HE DID OK. I'm just pointing out his motivation here. So he failed at convincing her and worse, hurt her deeply. This is where he proves that he is different from many, not even just vampires.

Spike realizes what a horrible act he has done and then decides to change. Many others in this situation would ignore it, become defensive, become more aggressive (he's EVIL after all /sarcasm/), or just make excuses. Spike did none of these things. He recognized with horror the thing he had done, and he decided to make a change. Again this does NOT make his action ok at all, but it does prove that he actually went seeking remorse rather than ignore it or have it foisted upon him. By our understanding of vampires in the Buffyverse, he should have been incapable of even recognizing what he did as wrong.
Personally, I think that William played a huge role in Spike seeking a soul and thus, salvation. So that sort of shreds the whole idea of a "shell" the watchers bandy about.

[Skitty]

Very good points, all, which I'm not going to rebutt for a couple of reasons. First, it's a wonderful discussion to have in the panel and I don't want to peak too soon. Second, I happen to agree with you on most of them!

So, here's what I'm seeing so far as our Bullet Points.

1.) Spike as a Man pre vamp and it's influence on the vampire he became
2.) The role of Spike's mother in the shaping of who he would be
3.) His difference from other vampires throughout his existence (I think we should also discuss the fact that, unlike most vampires, he went LOOKING for Slayers. And, though this isn't proven, he's the only one we've heard about that was able to walk away from not one, but two of them. Very important since it's one of the first things we learn about him.)
4.) What the attempted rape says about him as a person and a monster.

Could we talk about Dawn just an ITSY bit? And his friendship with Clem?

[athenamuze]

I think Dawn fits in nicely, it's through her that Spike begins to learn that he is not just being selfish.